Lasting Influence

Stuart Briscoe says he didn’t know what mentoring was until a few years ago. But if the church he led for 30 years is any indication, Stuart was doing it before he knew what it was. When Stuart retired in 2000, Mel Lawrenz, an associate pastor and eyewitness to Stuart’s ministry for 20 years, was called as senior pastor, and Elmbrook Church in suburban Milwaukee thrives today under Mel’s leadership.

Bob Russell depicts mentoring as “osmosis,” but his succession plan is very intentional. Now 59, Bob shares the pulpit with Dave Stone, 18 years his junior, the associate pastor already identified by the elders as the next senior minister of the burgeoning Southeast Christian Church in Louisville, Kentucky, when Bob chooses to retire. And recently, the church brought on staff a third preacher, age 26, and the mentoring cycle continues.

Few pastors are this close to the selection of their successors, but all pastors face the issue of raising up leaders within the congregation, both staff and volunteer, to enable the ministry to live beyond their lifetime. Leadership editors Marshall Shelley and Eric Reed asked these pastors to describe how they work with younger leaders to labor alongside, and, if the Lord wills, after them.

Pastors tell us they struggle to find good leaders. Is there a leadership shortage, or are we looking in the wrong places?

Bob Russell: Many churches don’t have strong leaders. As our church has grown, we’ve had a difficult time, too. We’ve singled out some people for leadership, but they responded, “That’s an awful lot of responsibility, and I don’t think I’m ready to do that.”

And people have different concepts of what makes a leader: A dynamic personality? A servant’s heart? Special gifts? The bar gets set higher and higher as people think a leader has to be everything.

We need to look beyond just dynamic, charismatic personalities, and be aware of individuals who have the character to inspire others to follow.

Stuart Briscoe: My two sons are leaders in their churches, both gifted and effective. One is upfront, gregarious, open-hearted, and a great communicator. The other is a behind-the-scenes, detail-oriented, reliable personality with a pastor’s heart.

People tend to think of the upfront personality as the leader type, but leadership is about more than personality. Leadership is about influencing people. Everyone has that ability at some level. We’re born with it. But is it identified? Is it channeled? Is it intentional?

Russell: You need different kinds of leaders in different departments. The leader in our nursery is a sergeant. Everything is in order. But a leader of a small group has to be much more relational.

Briscoe: Some people are one-talent leaders, others five, but the key is getting everybody in some position of influence and opening the doors for them to step up. It’s a matter of asking, “Where is this personality most suited to lead?” Like Bob said, “In what situations?”

I don’t look out at a congregation and say, “We’ve got 100 people, and maybe 10 of them are leaders.” I say, “Here are 100 people. Every one of them is a believer indwelt and gifted by the Spirit to exert influence in this community.” If we can get them to believe that and find their area, they’ll blossom.

Who tends to get overlooked in the search for leaders?

Briscoe: Young people. Leaders don’t have to be gray-haired. Many twenty-somethings are very capable. And the way our ministry teams are set up, our junior high ministry has junior high kids involved in leadership from the beginning. Even at that age, leaders emerge. Keep an eye on them.

Russell: Perhaps the most important thing we could say to churches without leaders is, “Go out and win some.” If you can find people gifted to lead and win them to Christ, in time they will become leaders in the church.

What clues suggest a person is capable of greater leadership?

Russell: We have a volunteer leader development program that puts people to work in various ministries, like an internship. We watch for their work ethic, their love for the Lord, whether they’re doctrinally straight, and whether they have a passion for a particular ministry. And “chemistry” is important. Someone can have integrity and passion but not necessarily fit with our ministry style or other leaders.

Briscoe: The first thing I look for is spiritual maturity. Then, in order of priority, I look for: a genuine love for people, a servant spirit, and team play. If those things are clearly discernable, they are already influencing others. Then it’s a matter of giving those who have proved themselves in small things opportunities to prove faithful in larger things.

How do you spot maturity “in the wild”?

Russell: I’ll tell you how I don’t try to spot it—by resumes or interviews. I’ve given up on that. I’m too easily snowed. People with tremendous charisma can use that for God’s glory, but many times those people have relied on their charisma for so long, they’ve never developed beyond that.

So now I ask, “Is anybody already following this person?” If they’re teaching, is the class enthusiastic? Are they learning? Is it growing? Or, if they lead a department, is it efficient?

At the time I was in college, Marvin Rickard was preaching at one of the first really large churches. They were running 2,000 people—unheard of back then. But Marvin was not a dynamic pulpit-pounder. He just opened the Bible and taught, and it was different from what we were trained to do.

Some students went to his church in Los Gatos, California, and commented, “I don’t know what’s making that church grow. It’s sure not his preaching, because he can’t preach his way out of a wet paper sack.” We were so locked into the preaching style we’d been taught that we failed to recognize the giftedness he had.

It’s the same with spotting leaders. Rather than looking for a particular leadership trait, we say, “What’s happening under this person’s influence?” We’ll be less likely to look at outward appearances and less likely to overlook the person of character.

Each of you mentored someone who has succeeded you (or will) as pastor. What did you first see in them?

Briscoe: Very early Mel Lawrenz showed remarkable maturity and intelligence. In his twenties he was a godly young man with a steady, level personality. I saw in him things I lacked myself. I admired his analytical abilities. I respected him.

Mel and I have been together for 22 years, but I feel a bit guilty talking about “mentoring.” Until a year or two ago, I’d never heard that term. I suppose I’ve done it, and others have influenced me in that way, but I didn’t know that’s what you called it.

Russell: I’m like Stuart. Just like “discipleship” became a popular word a decade or two ago, “mentoring” is a newer term. But that’s what we’ve been doing.

Fifteen years ago, I was preaching five times each weekend, so we started looking for someone to share the pulpit. Dave Stone spoke for our weekend services. Everybody really liked him. We invited Dave to come on staff to preach six weekends every year. Each year we gave him one more weekend a year. When you have somebody who is gifted, you must give him progressively more opportunities to use his gifts or you will lose him.

Okay, you didn’t know you were “mentoring.” How did you describe your relationship?

Briscoe: Mel did everything with me. Any meeting I was in, he was in. Any discussion I was having (except for personal counseling), he was in. We spent hours together talking over ministry, pastoring, caring for people. And we always shared what we were reading. Every week we had assigned reading for everybody on staff, and on Monday mornings we would discuss it.

It was easy in the ordinary course of events to understand his heart, to hear his issues, to get into his mind, and all the time, he was doing the same with me. We learned about each other. Such “mentoring” has been both mutual and unintentional.

Russell: Dave and I communicate constantly through voicemail. We meet each week to talk about the upcoming sermon and to evaluate the previous week’s. After one of us preaches on Saturday night, we voicemail back and forth with last minute suggestions before Sunday.

At first, Dave was really reluctant to critique me. He’d only tell me what he thought was good. Finally, I said, “I appreciate your encouragement, but if you don’t give me any suggestions, you’re not helping.”

The next week he left a voicemail: “What in the world are you even doing in ministry?” (Laughter.) He has a great sense of humor. He learns from me, and I learn from him.

How has your mentoring changed over the years?

Russell: My image of mentoring was setting up a breakfast every week where you sit down and pour your life into this person. I tried that once. It didn’t work.

Eventually I started inviting people to things I was already doing. I’d say, “I’m going to a speaking engagement. Would you like to ride along?” There might be two or three people riding with me, but that satisfied a need for them.

When I see a young person really desires to be mentored, I’ll say, “Why don’t you come to our Thursday sermon-review meeting? Don’t say anything unless you’re called upon. When the meeting is over, you have to leave because we have other things to discuss.”

When the young disciple gains a level of trust, I say, “I’m going to let you come to a staff meeting. You’re going to be exposed to information that needs to remain confidential. Break that trust, and you won’t be coming to any more meetings.”

When something comes up in the meeting, like a weakness in one of the staff members, and I know it can’t be repeated, I’ll stop the meeting and turn to the young person, “Cameron, what’s the slogan?”

“Sir, what I see, what I hear, when I leave, I leave it here.”

“Okay. Just reminding you.”

The postmodern generation desires genuineness, nothing phony. When they get to see things as they really are, they feel a part of the team; when they’re exposed to the inner workings of the church, it satisfies that need.

Briscoe: Too much is made of these one-on-one meetings. I have more requests than time to fill them. So when people come asking to be mentored, I often say, “I can’t do that exactly, but I can give you a reading list.” Many of the people who mentored me and had enormous influence on me were people I never met except in their books.

I was surprised one day when I went into a pastor’s office and picked up a book. I said, “Oh, this is one of the books I’ve been recommending.”

He said, “Look at that shelf. I bought every one of the books on your list, and I’m working my way through.”

I was taken aback by that. I haven’t even read all the books I recommend! (Laughter.)

Russell: I’ve learned a lot more in informal settings than I did when somebody said, “We’ll meet for an hour so I can teach you a few things.” The exposure to a leader in action is more meaningful than structured teaching.

Briscoe: Leadership is caught rather than taught.

You’ve talked about giving people opportunity. Do you also give them freedom to fail?

Russell: To learn leadership, you need a lot of leeway. Otherwise, they’re just going to do it like you want it done. But if they own that program and they know that they’re responsible for the result, they’re more likely to use their creative gifts, have a passion about it, and learn what leadership entails.

The only time I’ll step in is if I see a mistake will really wound him or damage the congregation. Then I’ll say, “I’m not going to let him make that mistake.”

Briscoe: One of my favorite stories when we were raising our kids was of the boxer who said to his manager, “I want the champ.”

The manager said, “No, you’re not ready for the champ.”

“But I want to fight him. I’m ready. Why can’t I fight him?”

“Because,” said the manager, “you’ve only so many fights in you, and it’s my job to pick the right ones.”

The opportunity to succeed always assumes the possibility of failure. We need to give our young leaders a safety net by selecting which opportunities they undertake. I’m not going to allow them to self-destruct in public, cataclysmic failure. We also need to do damage control when they fail.

What’s an example of damage control?

Russell: In a men’s meeting, Kurt, one of our young ministers told a story from the newspaper of a local judge who had been arrested for drunk driving. He used it as an example of hypocrisy. One of the men in the room was the judge’s neighbor. He stood up and confronted Kurt, saying, “We need to be more compassionate.”

Other men came to Kurt’s defense. The issue landed on my desk.

The next Saturday, I attended the men’s meeting. I said, “We do need to be more compassionate. Let’s invite the judge to come to our meeting so we can pray for him and support him during this time. But you know what? That is an example of hypocrisy.” I supported Kurt so that everyone could see that I stood with him.

Some of the men said to me later, “I saw what you were doing. I appreciate you standing up for your guy.”

Giving others room to grow means you have to step back to create that space. What does that require of you?

Russell: Sometimes it’s a struggle. It’s learning to swallow your pride. People often say to me, “Dave had the greatest sermon” or “I don’t know if it was you or Dave who said…”

Dave and I were talking the other day before the service when a woman came up to us. She said, “My 15-year-old son just loves your preaching, Dave. He thinks you’re the funniest thing. Would you come and meet him?”

Dave asked me later, “Did that bother you?”

“No,” I said. “I used to preach on a sophomore level, too.” (Laughter.)

Dave has increased pulpit time each year. He’s preaching about half of our services now, and he preached all our Easter services this year for the first time.

And now we’ve brought in a young man who’s 15 years younger than Dave, Kyle Idleman. He preaches ten times a year—and without notes. Now Dave and I are both hearing how good Kyle is.

Our people love him. The point is you have to be willing to swallow your ego to bring the next person along.

Briscoe: On John Wesley’s tomb in London, it says, “God buries his workmen, but his work goes on.” I tried to raise Elmbrook on that. As I saw my seventieth birthday approaching, I told the church: “There are three options open to me: You can kick me out. You can carry me out. Or I can walk out.” I chose to walk out.

The church considered its options as well. Mel had served as an associate pastor for many years, and when the church chose Mel as pastor, both he and the church were prepared. My responsibility was to move out of the way.

I recall the old Youth For Christ motto: Anchored to the Rock; geared to the times.” As we get older, we think in terms of being anchored to the Rock, but younger people are geared to the times. We’ve put in all these years anchoring our church to the Rock. Maybe it’s time for someone to come in and in a fresh way gear it to the times.

3 questions for Briscoe’s successor, Mel Lawrenz.

What Stuart Taught Me About Leading

1. How did Stuart help you grow as a leader?

Stuart didn’t lock us into methodologies. He thought mission first, method second. With the freedom of the Spirit, there are many possible ways to do what we’re supposed to be doing. Stuart always gave his staff the freedom and the responsibility to develop forms of ministry that were appropriate to them personally and to the necessities of the day.

He kept the focus on our purpose, clear and simple. He created the sense that we’re about important business, and we’re not going to be artificial about how we guide the course of the ministry.

I was an intern at Elmbrook when Stuart asked me to join the permanent staff. He said, “What do you think you’d like to do?”

I came back a couple of days later and said, “My wife and I have been praying, and we think we need some work in the area of marriage and family ministry.”

Stuart said, “Great,” and that’s how I started. That’s not our usual hiring practice, but it exemplifies Stuart’s determination to give people freedom to create ministry suited to them and to the church.

Stuart said the church should only have as much organization as you need. We’re looking at this again now. We need enough to give the church structure, but the church is a living, breathing organism. It can suffocate if we impose organization to the extent that it becomes bureaucracy. I’ve tried to preserve this freedom to be led by the Spirit, while giving people proper support for ministry.

2. What did you learn about spotting future leaders?

Three things, I think: (1) look for people who are going to be team players, who get along with others, (2) know that their value system is compatible with the church’s values, that they’re in complete harmony with what we’re about as a church, and (3) know that their gifts are a match for the task.

Those are three make-or-break issues, but I mention gifts-match third because that one often gets put at the top of the list. We have sometimes brought people into leadership positions who have little experience in that area, but we’re confident of their team spirit, their value system, and that they have the right gifts. Churches that look at experience first overlook a lot of good people. Even a novice in a particular area can succeed if the spirit and values are right. How else are we going to raise up leaders?

3. How does Stuart encourage you?

His way of encouraging is to spend brief moments of direct and focused contact, taking genuine pleasure in anything fruitful that’s happening in the day. Stuart is a critical thinker—he looks sharply and intently at things and knows what he doesn’t like—but he is mostly looking to rejoice in the positive.

He is deeply glad to celebrate others, without propping up himself. His complete faith and confidence in the ministry at Elmbrook meant he didn’t spend much energy on himself, but could praise others. And that is what has allowed him to share leadership. He doesn’t really care to have his name or his stamp on the things that happen.

Stuart’s favorite phrase is “I don’t anticipate any major difficulties.” (Jill says that will be on Stuart’s gravestone.) Which is not to say we don’t run into difficulties, but we can have faith that God will preserve the overall direction of the church. I think that produced confidence in us and gave us freedom. That’s very encouraging.

Mel Lawrenz is senior minister of Elmbrook Church in Brookfield, Wisconsin.

3 questions for preaching associate and successor-designate, Dave Stone.

Bob Russell’s Deliberate Hand-off

1. How has Bob increased your role before the congregation?

When I started preaching at Southeast Christian, I was the “filler” guy, preaching between series and covering vacations. Then Bob began bringing me into the series he was preaching. Then he started giving me the tougher assignments. When we preached on current controversial topics, Bob gave me abortion and homosexuality, and he took “thick crust vs. thin crust pizza” —you know what I mean.

We have shared preaching the Easter services, but this year he said, “Why don’t you preach all the Easter services?” How humble is that? That’s like having the Cy Young award-winner say, “Let’s have Dave pitch game one of the World Series, and I’ll start the second game.”

It might not make a lot of sense in the World Series, but when Bob does that, he communicates to the congregation, “This guy is worth hearing. He’s worth following.”

2. How has Bob developed your leadership skills?

I wasn’t brought in to be Bob’s replacement, but it became apparent through the years that we had a good match, and with all constituencies it seemed to be moving in that direction. About four years ago, the elders approved a transition plan, and Bob announced to the congregation that I would be his successor when he chooses to retire. He had supported me publicly countless times, but by putting his blessing on me, it forced me to “step it up.”

When we’re working on something together and Bob says, “You know, you’ll have to be a better leader than I am in this area when you’re the senior minister of this church,” that’s very sobering. He’s an outstanding leader, and he wants me to be better than he is.

Part of his plan is to give me a more well-rounded view of the organization, beyond my world of preaching. For nine years I was the staff representative on the building committee for our relocation project. Bob and the elders sent me to an executive leadership program, and for the last four years, I’ve become an administrator overseeing a variety of ministries.

In the last three years I’ve headed the leadership development committee. Bob knows I have a vested interest in the future deacons and elders because I’ll be working with them for the long haul, so he’s given me the responsibility for them. When we recently hired a third preacher, he gave me a share in the decision. That’s also sharing power.

3. Describe the role of sacrifice in developing leaders.

Bob is doing everything he can to pave the way for my ministry to succeed. And that takes humility. Not everyone has the desire to crucify their ego for the sake of the kingdom. My situation is the exception, not because of the church’s size, but because my biggest supporter is the senior minister.

We have stumbled onto an older-younger brother relationship, a kinship where you’d lay down your life, or even greater than that, give up a great illustration for the other guy to use ’cause he’s preaching next! In my book sacrificing an illustration goes way beyond giving up your life, because you can’t take it up again!

Dave Stone is preaching associate at Southeast Christian Church in Louisville, Kentucky.