“I hate stewardship, in terms of being the up front guy,” one pastor said, “but I like the results.”
All the pastors around the table nodded.
The admission came early in our conversation, but it was important to get it out. Most pastors don’t like talking about money. We don’t like preaching about money, most of us aren’t good at handling it, and many people—even Christians—think that’s all we’re interested in: their money.
Yet, money is what makes our ministries possible.
The pastors we met at this roundtable discussion in Minneapolis have had success because of it, and in spite of it, and they still feel the tension between God and money.
At the table:
Rich Doebler, a former Leadership editor who five years ago returned to the pastorate at Cloquet Gospel Tabernacle in Cloquet, Minnesota.
Michael Foss, pastor of Prince of Peace Lutheran Church in Burnsville, Minnesota, for almost ten years.
Knute Larson, for 19 years the pastor of The Chapel in Akron, Ohio, which recently pledged $26.5 million to purchase land and plant a second campus.
Keith Meyer, executive pastor of Church of the Open Door, which is relocating to a new facility on 50 acres in the Twin Cities suburb of Maple Grove.
And from Leadership, Marshall Shelley and Eric Reed, who have also helped lead their churches in budgeting, stewardship, and capital campaigns.
It was Knute Larson who first confessed he hates being the face on money issues, but when Knute talked about how he has grown in his leadership and preaching on stewardship, everyone at the table agreed.
Keith Meyer: For years talking about money in our church was taboo. We joke at Church of the Open Door that we can actually talk about the other m-word, masturbation, more easily than this m-word. We have challenged ourselves to re-think money: how we develop people as stewards is a measure of our church and our effectiveness.
Michael Foss: I suspect a lot of pastors have trouble with this issue because of the negative stereotype of churches constantly asking for money.
There’s a fear people will reject us. Many of the guys on TV have parked on this so much that many of the rest of us backpedal.
Rich Doebler: When it came out at my 20-year high school reunion that “Doebler is a pastor,” one of my old friends scoffed, “Like Jerry Falwell?”
Knute Larson: It’s difficult talking about money and asking for money, because I want people to like me, especially magazines (laughter).
So how do you overcome the stereotypes?
Foss: We say over and over at Prince of Peace that we’re more interested in your soul than your pocketbook, but because we’re interested in your soul, we have to talk about your pocketbook. That’s part of what it means to be a faithful disciple of Jesus Christ.
I want people to become faithful stewards, but it first began with conversion in my own heart.
What kind of conversion did you experience?
Foss: When I graduated from seminary, I was 26, and a first-time associate pastor. I received the appointment to three committees—youth, evangelism, and stewardship. I told the stewardship committee, “I’ll never preach a stewardship sermon because I don’t believe in that. I don’t think what, or if, people give is any of my business.”
Ted, the treasurer of the congregation confronted me after a board meeting: “You don’t tithe.”
“That’s right,” I said. “I don’t believe in it.”
“Well, how can you not believe in it when it’s so biblical?” he said.
They had never taught me that in seminary. I told Ted that. “It’s just not there,” I said.
“Let me give you some texts,” he replied, “and you and your wife pray about it and see what happens.
We did, and he was absolutely right. Chris and I discovered we were giving about 3 percent a year. And there was a lot of rationalizing. “I give my time, I give my life. I don’t need to deal with this.”
After prayerfully considering it, I went back to him and said, “Ted, you’re right.” And my wife and I made a commitment to tithe.
Do you hold up tithing as a standard?
Foss: We encourage tithing and beyond. Today, I’ll tell people that last year, my wife and I gave 15 percent. I tell them because I want them to be challenged to grow.
Larson: I had a guy tell me once, “I tithe 2 percent, and I do it regularly” (laughter).
Meyer: We looked at our church and found we were giving the average—3 percent—about $1,000 per attender.
Doebler: Our church has always felt kind of smug about being good givers. After all, tithing is supposed to be a traditional Pentecostal kind of thing. But we had consultants come in preparation for a building project, and we found out we’re giving less than the average growing church—$767 per person per year. That was a shock; all of a sudden the things we thought we knew, we didn’t. I needed to come back and reinforce some basic principles.
Larson: We published a study in our church paper that showed 17 percent of our people give 83 percent of our offerings. I wrote an editorial to go with it. (Church growth expert) Lyle Schaller wrote me back, “What are you complaining about?” He sent me surveys of 11 Midwest churches all showing the same thing: about 15 percent of attenders give 85 percent of the money.
Meyer: Our senior pastor Dave Johnson has confessed openly that at Open Door in the past, we have unintentionally denigrated giving. We gave people permission not to give. And we were wrong. That was a hard confession.
How did you denigrate giving?
Meyer: The message of radical grace, which we teach, for years focused on the first half of the epistle—we are freed by grace—but in a way that allowed people to ignore their obligations brought out in the last half. It wasn’t said this way, but the message was clear: your behavior, your choices, your attitudes don’t matter.
A real turning point for us was when Dave preached a sermon called, “The Spirit of the Tithe.” For the first time, our church heard about tithing in a positive way. We heard that obedience is freedom.
Larson: If we knew that 50 percent of our people lied regularly, we’d have no trouble preaching about lying. In our churches, probably as many or more are very poor stewards of their talents and gifts. That motivates me to preach on stewardship.
I preach through books of the Bible. When I come across money in Matthew, I preach it. That’s no problem. When it’s not there—when it’s time to build and we need to ask for money—then it’s hard for me. But you have to come to a point of saying, “This is for the kingdom. This is our vision.” In that case, it’s up to leaders to lead and ask givers to give.
Meyer: We in the church really need to help people see that giving is a lot bigger than giving to the church. It’s about a way of life.
Does the term “stewardship” still have currency?
Larson: As old as it is, stewardship is a great word.
Doebler: It’s Jesus’ word. And it’s about everything—time, gifts, money—we are stewards of. Much of our teaching fails because it’s about how much people should give rather than stewarding your time and your love.
Meyer: The word “steward” means I’m a slave who has been entrusted with all the owner’s stuff. It’s not mine.
How do you incorporate stewardship into your congregation’s DNA?
Foss: The question we ask is “How can we build a generous community of faith? What would that look like?”
At Prince of Peace, we teach six Marks of Discipleship: prayer, worship, reading the Bible, serving, relationships for spiritual growth. The sixth is giving—a tithe and beyond. We ask people to consider a plan for all six marks.
In the fall we have a pledge weekend, or really a “non-pledge” weekend. The people fill out cards we provide stating their plans in each area, then place the cards in envelopes which they address to themselves. And then there’s a processional as they bring the sealed envelopes to the altar. In January we mail the cards back without ever looking at them.
We say, “This is the commitment you made to God about your whole life.”
That doesn’t mean we don’t talk about money, because we do, but it’s always a part of the whole. It’s never just money.
Meyer: Before we began our relocation project, Dave preached a series on “Money, Sex, and Power.” He spent 12 weeks on money and possessions. At the end of one message we had a consecration service. The head of our stewardship committee said, “Let’s get a bowl and ask people to bring things and consecrate them to the Lord.” People dropped in credit cards and keys and said, “I don’t need to keep up with the Joneses.” We had a huge offering that day, and giving has been up 10 percent ever since.
The heart of stewardship is that we make disciples who are good stewards of God’s stuff.
Doebler: The motivation for teaching biblical stewardship in our church is simply because it’s the Bible, not because we’re hurting for cash or because ministries are being shut down or because opportunities may be lost. This emphasis may be even more relevant in slower growth areas like ours—rural areas or towns with declining industries and economies.
We have a mini-message on stewardship principles at every service just prior to the offering—not a full gust on the topic but a steady breeze week after week that we hope will encourage people to move in the right direction.
We’re gearing up for a building project, but regular, consistent giving for ministry and maintenance is the bigger issue. We’ve had several outside-the-budget projects that happened because individuals recognized a ministry opportunity and voluntarily funded it.
All of you are experienced in capital campaigns. How important is it to personally ask for money, especially from potentially big givers?
Larson: When I first went to The Chapel, we started a building campaign, and it was a bit of a stretch because they hadn’t done anything for so many years, and they’d never had a cent of debt.
I was talking with one businessman, and he said, “I have some ideas about this.” He drew a pyramid with horizontal lines through it, and he filled in several amounts. “These people should give this much, and these this much. And this one at the top should give $500,000. And who do you think that ought to be?”
“Well, umm,” I said nervously, “who do you think that ought to be?”
“Me!” he said. “It ought to be me!” He wanted to give in a major way. I had tears in my eyes, thanking God.
While I was there he picked up the phone and called another guy in the church. I blushed. He said, “I’m giving $500,000, and I think you ought to match it.”
And the other fellow did!
Group: Whoa.
Meyer: See, you ought to ask.
Larson: We ask people who sing well to sing solos. If somebody’s good at giving, why should we mind asking them to give?
Meyer: And we don’t give them opportunities because we don’t feel comfortable talking about this gift area. One of the greatest gifts we can give people is the opportunity to become more fully what God has created them to be. And giving is a natural extension of being a person who seeks to live the life of faith. To live the Christian life is to become like Jesus Christ. The most joy you can have is to be like your Savior. That’s the best payback.
We called our giving campaign, “Join the Party; Become a Hilarious Sacrificial Giver.”
Foss: Robert Schuller tells the story of the first million-dollar contributor when they were building the Crystal Cathedral. It was a Lutheran businessman who didn’t even attend Schuller’s church. The millionaire’s pastor asked the man, “Why didn’t you give the million dollars to us?”
The man said, “Because you didn’t ask.”
Does this “ask and receive” principle apply to the whole congregation?
Larson: Certainly it does for the Lutherans! (laughter).
In our campaign, we have had many people join in who had first thought they weren’t needed. Our church has a record of 16 years without a cent of debt. So many people thought, “It’s working fine; they don’t need me.” But when we set a goal of $24 million in four years, well—it was eight times anything we had given before.
We conducted the campaign as we were told; we did everything the consulting company said. And at the end, we had pledged only $22.3 million. The committee was faced with the decision: either end it at $22.3 million and call it a victory, or extend the campaign. It took a lot of nerve, but we extended the appeal six weeks, and then the whole congregation saw the need for real sacrificial giving.
We wound up with $25.6 million. A lot of people with great heart gave again or extended their giving for a fifth year.
Right now, we’re on target. At the end of 14 months (not that I’m keeping track, of course), we’ve received 23 percent of the pledges.
Do you appeal for money differently to Gen-X and younger adults?
Larson: Our young adults kept telling our building committee, and some of the leaders were indeed veterans, “Tell the mission. Emphasize the mission, and tell stories of changed lives.” For older people, it’s about a project, and we give because we’re supposed to give. But for younger people, it’s about the mission, not the amount.
How does that change your approach?
Larson: It changes everything—even announcements. When we have someone announce an event, we prep them, “People can find the date and time; the main thing we want you to communicate is why you’re excited about this ministry.”
Meyer: It has to do with authenticity. If people know that your project isn’t about a building, but it’s more about lives that are touched and that God is, in fact, pushing you to do this, they’ll give. What we’re seeing is that younger generations want to see our heart.
Doebler: People know the mood of your church. If you shift—and you starting talking about the buildings in terms of people when you have never talked that way before—people will know. We have to think of all our stewardship in terms of people. When our record shows that we’re an unselfish church, giving to help people, that’s when you can ask for money and it works well.
Meyer: I agree. The currency for ministry is not money. It’s not even people. It’s trust. If people trust you, they’ll follow you and they’ll support you. So we have to ask, are we behaving in ways that are consistent and really engender that trust?
Larson: Trust is bigger than money, obviously, but you can symbolize it with money. And the moral issue and the money issue are where the church gets bad marks through the years. So we go out of our way in both areas.
For example?
Larson: I never touch the money. It seems like a small thing, but a couple of times a month, someone will ask me to put their offering in the plate. I send them to an usher.
Our staff all report gifts over $50 to our director of stewardship. We don’t prohibit receiving gifts, but they must be reported.
And we have an annual audit of the books.
By an outside firm?
Larson: Yes. We use a national company that audits a lot of churches and parachurch organizations. We publish a report, like an annual report. It’s a word to the business people in our congregation that we do this like they do it.
Doebler: That can be difficult in a small church. Everybody knows everybody; everybody’s related to everybody. Maybe in a small town, the trust factor is a given. To raise the subject of an audit might say I don’t trust them.
I asked our financial secretary, who’s been there twenty years, “In all that time, have you ever had anything like an audit?” The answer was no.
Larson: I think a pastor is responsible to pick the leaders and to pick a management system, to see that money is handled well. I feel that responsibility, even if I’m not directly involved with the money.
With the financial companies in trouble now, they name the CEO. He’s the guy who flunked.
Doebler: I have been gently chided by some of our leaders for taking too much interest in the monthly financial reports. Most of our leaders are not independent businessmen and are less concerned about trends and projections and graphs than I am. Assuming that he has some interest and ability in keeping on top of the financial information, I’m wondering how involved the pastor of a smaller church should be.
How much should the pastor know about giving and the givers?
Foss: One of the changes I underwent in the mid-1980s was whether I as senior pastor should know what people give. I now have a list of the top 200 givers.
A national survey showed that when there was a significant change in giving, up or down, there was probably a ministry need or a crisis in that family, but how could you know unless you were tracking?
What I find fascinating is the incredible witness these people (the top 200) have—single parents and older people who give incredible amounts of money—and we ought to be able to celebrate that.
How do you celebrate their contributions?
Foss: I write them notes. When I get the chance, I thank them personally.
Is there a danger in knowing who gives and how much?
Foss: As a disciple of Jesus Christ, the question that I really struggle with is “Has my discipleship been compromised?” I have people around I believe hold me accountable, but if I have compromised, then it’s my responsibility to address it.
I think it’s an illusion that somehow a pastor will give less care to somebody because we know what they’re giving, or not giving. I’m not suggesting every pastor should know who gives, but for me, it’s been helpful. I’ve found that people who are joyous givers are the least insistent on their own way, and those who think they have the right to set the agenda for the church are rarely generous people. And I have found that liberating.
Has your view of money and the church changed in other significant ways?
Foss: I can’t tell you how many years I spent worshiping a God of scarcity. I thought I had great visions for God, but they were puny. But I came to believe that God can fund whatever he needs, so that God, through the gospel, can change lives. Stewardship begins with the assumption that the gospel changes lives. The question is Am I paying attention to what God wants me to do and wants this church to be about? That changes everything.
Larson: One temptation is to let money lead you rather than the Spirit of God. And the pursuit of money is to prostitute the ministry and become a contracted minister rather than a consecrated minister of God.
Meyer: For me, it’s not about money. It’s about the heart and spiritual transformation of people. And we have such a desperation in our society for real life change. This is one of the ways we can help people be transformed. If we have a compelling vision, and our people see how giving helps them change and grow, they are going to get on board.
And we don’t have to be smart about it; just give them the opportunity.
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